I had some heated conversation over this Earthling Ed video. Just sharing my thoughts.
Just imagine(not necessarily hypothetical), one day an intelligent and superior alien species conquer the earth and enslave all human being. And a 25 year old Alien who loves human meat says “I wish a perfectly cooked human flesh and human tongue and liver wasn’t so delicious. I know they feel when we throw them on the slaughter house but ooh.. I cant stop having pleasure from eating my delicious food. Yummy.” This is why morality is objective. You try to approach a scenario by putting your ownself in there. The assumption that you are superior and thus you can abuse is morally wrong. Now whether you want to be moral or not is totally up to you. But you are being immoral by killing sentient being is a fact.
The problem is you can not feed meat or dairy products through milk etc. to the 7 billion people on earth by having cattle farm everywhere, ultimately you will have to have animal farming. My grandma own couple cattle farms and I grew up playing with them. So, definitely having a cattle farm is way better and more ethical. But veganism is more like a movement where vegans are making a statement that “in our modern world we can perfectly live and breath by having plant based diet, and we have no necessity to live on meat based protein and put these mammals, reptiles, our fellow creatures in to pain just for our pleasure of taste in the tongue.” It’s hard to teach morality, isn’t it? We used to have slaves and beat the hell out of them, rape slave women just few years ago.. and it was perfectly legal, vouched by religious scriptures.. that’s why a simple moral test is always asking yourself before doing the action “Would you like that to happen to yourself?” That’s where compassion and humanism and a better world origin from.
So..point valid everywhere.. even in a new dimensional world or even in the deep past or even in present.
Aren’t plants as living beings feel pain too… double standards?
These are common things been said towards veganism which just indicates how little people think or know about life and biology. Plant does not have brain and central nervous system. Mammals are not the same as reptilians and amphibians, reptilians are not the same as fungi or plants. There’s a hierarchy in the mechanism of pain. A crocodile or a hippopotamus won’t feel anything on their thick skin if you punch hard, but try that on a human or a dog or a cow. What is pain is a neurological question. What is suffering is a cosmic consciousness question. Yes, plants suffer, but do plants feel pain on the same level a mamal brain which evolved over 500 million years in the 4.8 billion year old history of earth? The answer is no. It’s plain biology and you need to read some literature on the evolution of pain and what nervous centres actually cause it. One intuition I can give, if a person is paralyzed in one leg, you can try punching, pinning, he won’t feel pain from there. But definitely on the consciousness level, plants suffer as they have life. So, I understand where you are coming from. In an ideal buddhist world, they prefer not even killing plants. If I would be able to survive well without killing plants, I actually would prefer to do that as that’s what the same moral code suggests. What I mean by that is that if you are in a living condition, where you no longer have other option but to kill an animal, morally you are right to kill for your survival. So, you couldn’t be a vegan in antarctica or arctic sea where your only option is some seals and fishes. So, morality also definitely depends on cultural evolution and understanding, but on a very firm and simple objective which is “How can we reduce suffering and pain in the world as it is apparently not pleasant”. Hope that answers your doubt. But also read more about what I am saying in philosophy and biology and earth and human history. You don’t need to take my words! Let’s be compassionate as we have reached far and are truly progressing towards a compassionate world little by little amidst all the bullshits, wars and nightmares. And innocent animals can be included in your circle of compassion too.. 😉
“Thanks for the short budhist training. But no, it is still your view of the world and it’s valid but so is mine.
I decided to put and limit my moral compass on human’s feelings and suffering I have little feelings for unknown rabbits living in a random cave in India.
I guess your philosophy will be more telling for individualistic monk in a spiritual quest trying to feel compassion in everyone and everything in the universe (ironically so often excluding his/her close family). That’s one way to live a life but certainly not the best way if there is one.”
Yep, totally valid question. No, the wolves are not immoral because wolves don’t understand morality, wolves don’t have the ethical evolution about what it means to be right or wrong. That’s one way of answering it. Another answer is wolves are carnivorous, they can only eat meat, they can’t live on plants. But the giant apes, our ancestors, chimpanzees, bonobos, gorillas, orangotans are 95% herbivorous, and only 5% carnivours meaning they sometimes enjoy meat or insects. So, we are actually omnivorous, but we are more herbivorous than carnivorous.. we forcefully are evolving ourselves to becoming carnivorous. You can see in the literature of medical science, how carcinozens cause cancer, what’s the main root of heart disease etc. But anyway, you can totally have a healthy carnivorous diet. So, from the morality standpoint, wolves haven’t written books on morality, wolves haven’t understoon peace, they don’t held nobel peace prize conference. Now whether some people are like wolves, definitely they are.. 😉 whether it’s better to be like a peaceful bonobo than a violent chimpanzee, I think that leads towards a peaceful society. Whether you use atomic energy to bring power plants, versus whether you nuke hiroshima.. we totally have the choice of both. But we understand from physical pain/suffering perspective and also from the empirical evidence from the past, what causes less suffering to life..
“And if your logic is applied to the current world veganism is still a luxury morality which is my main point.
It cannot be universal at least in the present state of the world.
I will leave it here since I can smell that this topic passionates you to the maximum. Hope we’ll have more time to discuss. I’d like to have a deeper understanding of budhism from someone who practice it on a daily basis. 😉”
Whether others are not doing anything to bring less suffering shouldn’t prevent you. If you can be luxarious in the right direction, then be it. May be Einstein had the luxury to think about gravitational pull, theory of relativity when most people were just pulling carts in the world. So are other scientists.. Guess what, that brought everything we enjoy today, including me texting on fb on internet. So are most of the peace prize winners, when nobody cared, they gave their sweats to bring fairness in the world. They weren’t always right. After all we are fallible human beings. But if our intuition tells that something should be done to reduce suffering of animals, and if it’s just to sacrificing my eating habit a little, I will do. And you are right. These are luxurious, but somebody had to do it. If they wouldn’t the world would still be the barbaric world from the past where we would be roaming around on horses with swords or guns in both sides of our cowboy pants and would totally chop heads every time some one argue with us. Haha.. I hope you get the point. Definitely luxurious, but what you understand to be right is always in your hand to be executed immediately. You always have the choice not to do either and flow with the usual tide. After all forcing morality on to others is also immoral which is paradoxical, now I am playing word games.. haha. 🙂